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Американский Холостяк #21 Nick Viall

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Старый 14.01.2017, 00:29   #551
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After all her interruptions (there has to be a better, more specific word for that), Corinne continues to be as popular as ever by giving an impressively condescending speech about why they're all there. My favorite part of this clip is Taylor's and Vanessa's facial expressions...

... but then I realized Vanessa wasn't even in this particular formation...
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Старый 14.01.2017, 00:33   #552
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I love Hailey.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 00:42   #553
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... and I'm 99% sure that clip of her face was actually from this seating arrangement...

... so her face expression was probably in response to something or someone else? Oh well, I still loved it.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 00:55   #554
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I spent both my The Morning After and Flare recaps discussing Corinne, so I don't think it's necessary to repeat myself, but I do have some additional thoughts. Some people have said that they think Nick could be drawn to Corinne because she's a strong personality like Andi and Kaitlyn. I do think there's something to that, but there's also a difference between being a strong, independent, opinionated woman and being antagonistic and aggressive, and when I think of Andi and Kaitlyn, I think of the former and not the latter. Like, Andi and Kaitlyn are both popular girls who have girlfriends—in real life and while on their respective Bachelor seasons. Also, a lot of my concerns have been over how SOON Corinne has so willingly become the villain. A commenter over at Flare named Max (who always has great comments, by the way) said the following:

"Yes, I agree Corinne's playing an archetype, but the fact that she's playing it this hard this fast makes me wonder if her storyline will become more than this over the course of the season. Perhaps she'll — gasp! — evolve?"

I couldn't agree more. Remember on Jojo's season, how Chad, before becoming so universally despised that guys were ratting him out to the Jojo (and she ultimately sent him home), he began to develop some real feelings for her? They seemed to surprise even him. I suspect something similar may happen with Corinne. She's come out, guns blazing and super competitive, but if she gets a 1-on-1 (which I think we can all see happening since Nick has only rewarded her for her actions thus far), she may develop actual feelings beyond finding him "so hot" and end up on some personal journey of her own—IF Nick doesn't nip it in the bud by axing the villain (like so many leads have in the past). I think this has the potential to be great TV, but I do still think it's necessary for her to be at least somewhat likable for us to care about and root for her.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 01:41   #555
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DANIELLE M'S 1-ON-1

There's not much to say about the day portion of Danielle M's 1-on-1 because it was mostly hijacked by the Liz storyline. At the mansion, Liz’s “we had sex” (and the "I met Nick at Jade and Tanner's wedding", for that matter) is like an old, familiar friend...

Clips of you cutting vegetables can and will be used against you. Also, interesting choice of nap location.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 01:55   #556
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Liz deems Christen the most trustworthy girl in the house—a testament to how careful you have to be with dirt while you film—and lays it all out there. I thought reusing clips was just an audio thing, but turns out they'll do it with reactions, too. Note Christen's arm positions before the second reaction...
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Старый 14.01.2017, 02:51   #557
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Now about Danielle M's actual date, well, she's just lovely. And she and Nick seem lovely together. Her story about her ex-fiancé was brutal but while Danielle M seems so soft, you can tell she's really just quietly classy, confident, and strong. I particularly liked how she realized she was getting ahead of herself...

... which to me really shows how this show can get to you. Even someone as reasonable and on-planet-earth-seeming as Danielle M is swept off her feet, and she's aware enough to observe it happening. Love her.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 03:17   #558
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SECOND GROUP DATE

Nick takes the ladies to some Museum of Broken Relationships (oh-kay) and, despite the nice sentiment behind what he's saying, shows he doesn't know what an adjective is...
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Старый 14.01.2017, 03:39   #559
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Before I get to Liz, I have to first say Josephine's "break up" was hilarious...

I said in last week's The Morning After that I loved Josephine's kookiness and so far she's not letting me down.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 03:46   #560
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Watching Liz's "break up" was SOOOOOOOO painful. I almost had to cover my eyes, I didn't want her to do it so badly. I do think she had no intention of doing that and actually wanted to lay low and have a quiet conversation with him. But our first tip that she was going to do something drastic was this moment, where she was so frustrated by his lack of engagement with her throughout the date, to the point of tears...
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Старый 14.01.2017, 04:28   #561
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I definitely feel like she used her "break up" as the heart-to-heart she'd been wanting for days and she finally had his undivided attention. There is also no way a producer didn't either plant the idea in her head or encourage her to do it. Regardless, I get the logic behind it but it was still a TERRIBLE idea, especially since from the get-go Nick had a suspicion that all she wanted was attention and to be on TV. And if a person, man or woman, ever makes this face while you're talking to them, it's beyond over...
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Старый 14.01.2017, 04:32   #562
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As promised, here's my take on the Liz situation...

I think Nick in particular is very sensitive to people seeing him differently based on his favorable appearance Bachelor in Paradise, when frankly he was the same person on that show that he was on the previous Bachelorette seasons. Remember, for 2+ years (and still to this day, really) this guy has gotten a LOT of hate. Yes, I know he put himself in a position to receive it, but the fact remains that he's been on the receiving end of enough flak to thicken even the toughest, most confident, most self-assured person's skin. Therefore, he doesn't have a ton of patience for people who suddenly treat him differently after he's gone from being that guy you made fun of for appearing on 3 seasons to suddenly The Bachelor himself and thus more famous, respectable, and/or "higher rung" in the Bachelor world. There have been folks in Bachelor nation who might not have cared one way or another to be his friend, but whom overnight became interested. In this regard, I can totally see his lack of sympathy for someone like Liz. After all, for the better part of a year she was only one degree of separation away from being able to contact him. And she got to know him outside of all this (for the most part, anyway). One night might not be a long time but it's long enough to decide whether you like a person and want to see him again. She got to know him personally, human to human, and should have been able to make her own judgment as to whether or not he was someone she'd want to date. She shouldn't have needed to wait for his flattering spin on BIP or his crowning as Bachelor to find him dateable.

Also, knowing Nick, I can see him have ZERO patience for a girl testing him right off the bat like Liz did with her limo entrance. She would have been FAR better off just coming out and laying it all out there. We know by now that some of Nick's favorite traits in a romantic interest are honesty and transparency; by keeping her cards to herself—needlessly—she killed any possibility here before she even set foot in that mansion.

I've heard people say that Nick shouldn't be one to talk since his existing relationship with Kaitlyn was one of the reasons he waltzed (late) onto that show. The difference is he was already an alum; he would have been allowed on Kaitlyn's season whether or not they had ever spoken, and especially since he was formerly a villain. Secondly, the amount of time Nick had to get to know Kaitlyn could never amount to 9 months' worth (more like a few weeks' worth) and he didn't have much time to pursue her before she was crowned Bachelorette. Also, Kaitlyn becoming Bachelorette didn't represent some change in his or the audience's perception of her. (Aka, she didn't go from hated to loved the way he has.) So, again, I do think Nick is ultra-sensitive to that change in perception and has very little tolerance for the folks whose behavior towards him changed on a dime. And whether or not Liz is actually one of those people, she automatically falls into that category in his eyes because, before he became popular on BIP, she had both the time and access to let him know she was interested.

And let's reverse the gender roles here for a moment. Let's say Nick was Tanner's Best Man and Liz was a two-time Bachelor alum mostly known for being despised and a villain. If Liz had wanted to get Nick's phone number after a drunken one night stand and Nick had said no, he would be a raging asshole. I don't personally think this whole thing stems from Nick being wounded by her refusing him (I personally think if he was truly intrigued by Liz he might have still tried to reached out to her himself) but it does highlight the double standard. Society says Liz saying no is just her being not interested, not ready, or a strong woman who can have sex like a man. Yet, Nick saying no would be just massively dirtbag-ish.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 04:40   #563
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But here's the crux: I personally think Liz wanted to be pursued, and actively. She may very well have liked Nick a lot but didn't want to be that clingy one night stand girl who thinks a fun night means something more than it does. And in wanting to not seem like that girl, she went in the opposite direction and shut him down—a defense mechanism of sorts to protect herself from getting shut down down the road. I sadly get the feeling that this stems from a deeper insecurity on her part, like the assumption that a man she has a one night stand with would only ask for her number to be nice, and those guys need to be weeded out from the ones who genuinely want to see her again. In my humble opinion, the following clip sums this up painfully well...

Note how instead of singing last week's tune of pretending to like the "mystery" of his not remembering her, this intimate moment with a girlfriend (where I doubt she thought a camera was on her) reveals her real reason for not giving her number: All those months ago, she probably was interested (interested enough to sleep with him, after all), but she was more afraid of being some guy's sympathy case. I think her pride got the best of her.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 04:53   #564
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More problematically, Liz couldn't properly explain herself when Nick confronted her. She mostly got defensive and made very little sense. She first said that she knew he was "off shooting Paradise", but then when he said that was just for one month, she jumped to saying she doesn't like phone conversations. (??) For all her talk about wanting to have a conversation, that conversation mostly involved Nick expressing his reservations and then her getting defensive. It was crucial, especially since she'd had all the time in the world to mull through the different scenarios of this conversation, that she articulate her reasoning and take responsibility in this moment. She did neither.

Unfortunately for Liz, her appearance on this season looks bad no matter how you slice it. If she did like Nick, she screwed that up 9 months prior. If she wanted some sort of adventure (I mentioned in my The Morning After video that very few contestants go on this show SOLELY for love, because frankly that would be insane), fine, but that translates on this show to wanting to be on TV. And if she actually just wanted to be on TV, well... I guess she got a taste of it.

I can't blame Nick for being wary of Liz; every one of her actions wrote this outcome on the walls. And after she told another girl in the house, turning whatever bit of their history might have been a salvageable into gossip fodder, it practically forced him to send her home. Nonetheless, I strongly suspect Liz was prodded into making a lot of mistakes. As longtime reader (and much appreciated typo-spotter) Sara J Henry emailed to me:

"I can almost hear producers whispering to her, Don't let him know you know him, see if he recognizes you! ... Yes, maybe you should confide in someone. ... Go ahead, spill details in your fake break-up scene!"

No producer can make you do anything and it's surely no excuse, but don't underestimate their abilities to get in one's head and ultimately cause them to behave in a way they never otherwise would. I suppose I have a little soft spot for Liz because, aside from her getting really flustered and defensive when Nick confronted her, she really was otherwise mostly drama-free. When he sent her home, she didn't even put up a fight; you could tell she felt embarrassed and just wanted out. There is no need to rake her over the coals now; I have no doubt if she could go back in time, she would do many things differently.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 06:57   #565
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Whitney:
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Старый 14.01.2017, 07:02   #566
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Старый 14.01.2017, 07:04   #567
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Старый 14.01.2017, 07:06   #568
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Старый 14.01.2017, 07:09   #569
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Старый 14.01.2017, 14:35   #570
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Сообщение от barish@Янв 13 2017, 23:26

I totally understand what Raven's getting at here. Look, guys who are only assholes have never been my thing, but guys who speak their mind are. In fact, there are probably a few people on this planet who think Andy is an asshole; obviously I don't think so, but he's both opinionated and a brutal mind-speaker, and I can see a lot of people (especially those who don't agree with his opinions) being rubbed the wrong way and chalking that up to him being an asshole. (For the record, he is the most doting, understanding, and supportive partner I've ever had, and I've been with men who were a lot less "asshole"-ish than him.) A lot of women routinely go for the asshole but can't differentiate what the actual trait is that they keep being drawn to. Kudos to Raven for getting it.

Also, since a few of you have mentioned liking Andy's commentary, when Raven told Nick she'd walked in on her ex-boyfriend with another girl, Nick asked, "What did you learn from that?" From our sofa, Andy responded, "To not walk in on other girls getting boned by my boyfriend?” I thought this was pretty funny.
забавный пассаж. На словах "brutal mind-speaker" я подумал "видимо он и есть asshole, по крайней мере частично". Потом на словах "he is the most doting, understanding, and supportive partner I've ever had" я подумал "а может и нет". И после "From our sofa, Andy responded, "To not walk in on other girls getting boned by my boyfriend?”, соответственно - "таки asshole". И то что Шарлин нашла эту ремарку достаточно смешной, чтобы ею поделиться, меня смущает.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 15:08   #571
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Сообщение от barish@ Вчера, 23:32
My favorite part of this clip is Taylor's and Vanessa's facial expressions...
лучшее выражение было несомненно у... Хейли? или как там её? Из Канады. Она сначала отгородилась от происходящего с помощью "wall of hair", а потом многозначительно кивала. Очень красноречиво.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 16:15   #572
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Сообщение от barish@ Сегодня, 03:56
No producer can make you do anything and it's surely no excuse, but don't underestimate their abilities to get in one's head and ultimately cause them to behave in a way they never otherwise would. I suppose I have a little soft spot for Liz because, aside from her getting really flustered and defensive when Nick confronted her, she really was otherwise mostly drama-free. When he sent her home, she didn't even put up a fight; you could tell she felt embarrassed and just wanted out. There is no need to rake her over the coals now; I have no doubt if she could go back in time, she would do many things differently.
лично мне очень резанули её слова в fake breakup о том что он "didn't fight for her". Для меня они являются показателем достаточно серьёзного женского недостатка - склонности перекладывать ответственность на мужчину. Как правило это проявляется у более молодых девушек, и сигнализирует об их неготовности к серьёзным отношениям. Многие хотят сказку, и мужчина должен либо впрячься эту сказку реализовать, либо в конечном итоге быть заклеймлённым как неоправдавший ожиданий. Когда мы ищем компромисс, нужно сопоставлять цену этого компромисса для обеих сторон. В данном случае ей практически ничего не стоило связаться с Ником, в то время как ему нужно было поставить себя в потенциально очень глупую и неприятную ситуацию, если она вдруг отошьёт его повторно. Она конечно не говорила что он должен... но формулировка "I wish that you..." по сути навешивает на него ярлык "неоправдавшего ожиданий", и если он с ним соглашается, то это создаёт опасный прецедент в отношениях, т.е. он может ожидать что подобное перекладывание ответственности будет происходить и в будущем.

Это большой минус, но теоретически в реальных отношениях плюсы могли его перевесить. В данной же ситуации высочайшей конкуренции даже без этой истории у Лиз были бы достаточно призрачные шансы. А с ней, как выразилась Шарлин, "it's beyond over..."
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Старый 14.01.2017, 18:19   #573
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Сообщение от barish@ Вчера, 23:58
"Yes, I agree Corinne's playing an archetype, but the fact that she's playing it this hard this fast makes me wonder if her storyline will become more than this over the course of the season. Perhaps she'll — gasp! — evolve?"

I couldn't agree more. Remember on Jojo's season, how Chad, before becoming so universally despised that guys were ratting him out to the Jojo (and she ultimately sent him home), he began to develop some real feelings for her? They seemed to surprise even him. I suspect something similar may happen with Corinne. She's come out, guns blazing and super competitive, but if she gets a 1-on-1 (which I think we can all see happening since Nick has only rewarded her for her actions thus far), she may develop actual feelings beyond finding him "so hot" and end up on some personal journey of her own—IF Nick doesn't nip it in the bud by axing the villain (like so many leads have in the past). I think this has the potential to be great TV, but I do still think it's necessary for her to be at least somewhat likable for us to care about and root for her.
в моём понимании, даже если у неё и появятся чувства к Нику, это далеко ещё не "evolution". Эпизоды значительного развития личности могут случаться в период личностного кризиса, когда определённые события ставят перед фактом, что устоявшаяся система мировоззрения и принципов поведения не приводит к ожидаемому результату. Это может произойти после проекта, и особенно во время трансляций, когда участница смотрит на себя со стороны. Во время же проекта? Я не совсем понимаю что Шарлин ожидает увидеть. Самый лучший шанс на "эволюцию" - это если они нам её на данный момент показывают с худшей стороны, а потом резко изменят угол.
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- Good. Now go fail again.
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Старый 14.01.2017, 22:14   #574
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Cheerio, прежде всего спасибо за все отклики! Не всегда есть что сказать в ответ, но я всегда ценю, когда понятна реакция смотрящего/читающего.
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Сообщение от Cheerio@Янв 14 2017, 17:18
лично мне очень резанули её слова в fake breakup о том что он "didn't fight for her". Для меня они являются показателем достаточно серьёзного женского недостатка - склонности перекладывать ответственность на мужчину. Как правило это проявляется у более молодых девушек, и сигнализирует об их неготовности к серьёзным отношениям.
Сразу было понятно по ее поведению, что у нее проблемы в отношениях. Сначала ей хотелось, чтобы он ее не помнил и она его "поставила на место". Зачем приходить и стараться понравиться человеку, который даже не помнит, что вы уже знакомы? Когда она сказала, что ее надо было завоевывать, то все окончательно стало понятно. Да, это было неожиданно. Она не понимает, что она его отвергла, не дав ему свой телефон, как он себя должен был чувствовать? Или она ему должна была понравиться до такой степени, что он бы только о ней думал и все равно старался ее завоевать? Да, девушкам свойственна мечтательность...и то, что она пошла на шоу о том же говорит. Ну чего она ожидала?
Она совершенно не смотрит на это с его точки зрения. И Ник прав, у них с ходу образовалась куча проблем.
У меня двоякое к ней отношение. С одной стороны мне ее жаль, что она так себя подставила, прийдя на шоу. Теперь она будет знать, что тут высасывают все и любой возможной драмы. Ей повезло, что есть Коринне, которой в любом случае принадлежит пальма первенства. Иначе Лиз бы была самой обсуждаемой девушкой, хотя ей и так досталось достаточно! :ph34r:
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Старый 14.01.2017, 22:35   #575
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Сообщение от Cheerio@Янв 14 2017, 19:22
Это может произойти после проекта, и особенно во время трансляций, когда участница смотрит на себя со стороны. Во время же проекта? Я не совсем понимаю что Шарлин ожидает увидеть. Самый лучший шанс на "эволюцию" - это если они нам её на данный момент показывают с худшей стороны, а потом резко изменят угол.
Мне был очень неприятен Чад и мне все равно было что с ним будет, мне хотелось его больше не видеть. Коринне мне тоже неприятна. И потом она настолько привыкла получать то, что хочет, что будет добиваться этого любыми путями. На АФ развернули целую дискуссию о ней, то ли она дура, то ли избалованная. Мне в любом случае не очень интересно ее наблюдать, будут ли у нее какие чувства к Нику или нет, пока ей надо заватить любимую игрушку!
Несмотря на неоднократно мерзкое поведение Чада, орги от него не отстают и уже подписали его на следующий сезон ВiР. Вот будет идеальная парочка! :rolleyes: Уверена, что и без нее там не обойдется! :meeting:
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